What “Overreaction” Means

Every death is a tragedy, at least on some level. And everybody dies.

Here, for this analysis, we will recognize upfront that tragic deaths have occured due to COVID 19. Nobody sane is happy about that, and I and everyone of good will has nothing but sympathy for those suffering such loses.

Having acknowledged that, we will set aside our perfectly healthy and human emotional reactions to take a look at what should reasonably be done.

Death is a petty, fickle thing. The most innocent activities can get you killed. For example, every year:

  • about 3,500 Americans a year drown in their backyard pools.
  • about 2,700 Americans die in motorcycle accidents.
  • about 36,000 Americans die of falls.

And on and on. About 4o,000 Americans die every year in automobile accidents, not counting pedestrians who get run over; commercial fishing and raising cattle are two other comparatively dangerous occupations, with disproportionately high accidental death rates.

We all know this, or at least used to. Used to be, we accepted reasonable risk and the inevitable tragedies as part of the price of freedom. What a ‘reasonable’ level of risk is varies, but, generally speaking, if we felt (it’s mostly feelings – we’re people, after all, not computers) the risk was either unavoidable or at least partly something we can control, we were generally good with it. Thus, backyard pools can be fenced, children can be watched; motorcyclists can be very careful and wear helmets; we throw a non-slip rubber mat in the shower.

Something else we used to understand: bad stuff happens. The neighbor kid will climb pool fences, and sometimes drown; the careful, law-abiding motorcyclist will die when somebody runs a red light or makes a crazy lane change; and grandma is going to die of something, and falling and whacking her head is a possibility no matter what we do.

In moments of clarity and humility, we accept that all we can do is take prudent precautions, that bad stuff will happen no matter what steps we take. We recognized we’d end up living lives of paranoia and slavery if we can’t accept a good level of risk.

Now? Check this statement out:

“The truth is, there is no such thing as an accident. We know what to do to save lives, but as a nation, we have not consistently prioritized safety at work, at home and on the road.”

Accidental Deaths Hit Highest Number in Recorded U.S. History the National Safety Council, 2018.

“…no such thing as an accident.” I don’t know whether to prescribe some basic philosophy, psychological counseling, or serotonin reuptake inhibitors to treat such an insane misapprehension of reality. On a logical basis, that claim is sheer fantasy. As propaganda, however, it’s genius. Under this rubric, LITERALLY EVERY BAD THING THAT HAPPENS IS SOMEBODY’S FAULT. “We” know how to prevent every bad thing. If every bad thing has not been prevented, some other “we” – certainly not us! – has failed! Implied: “we” – first “we” again – need MORE POWER in order to properly “prioritize safety”.

The National Safety Council is a hoary institution, dating back to the Wilson administration, a time when our betters were pretty public about their conviction that they could solve all problems if we little people would just let them, so it would be tempting to think this view represents some sort of outdated extreme. Alas, this is exactly the view expressed by Governor Cuomo and others to justify anti-COVID 19 measures that would have been considered crazy a generation (or, perhaps, one administration) ago.

And measures not remotely justified by the information we had available at each point of this fiasco.

How did we get here? A big part was played by models that predicted millions of dead and a collapse of health care systems under the strain of tens of millions of critically sick. Those claims were made not just on extremely unlikely worse-case scenario assumptions, but in the face of known contradictory evidence. Yet, our well-schooled, by which I mean functionally innumerate and alogical, population continues to fall for it. Let’s take a look at models at a high level.

The first thing a pro, even so meager a one as myself, wants to know when constructing a model is: what does the data look like? Is it clean and consistent? Is it reported in an orderly, reliable manner? Is it clearly defined? Because your model – your predictions – will never be any more accurate or reliable than the data they are built upon. This is a truism: garbage in, garbage out.

So, something clear to anyone who cared to look from Day 1 of this mess: the data is garbage. Teasing anything meaningful out of this inconsistent, incoherent pile of junk was always going to be a challenge, and would always be highly uncertain.

Simple questions a pro would ask:

  • What constitutes a ‘death’?
  • What constitutes a ‘case’?
  • Are these defined and reported consistently from place to place and over time?

And slightly – and only slightly – more sophisticated:

  • Anybody have an interest in the numbers going one way or the other?

Meaning: is it in anyone’s interest to over or under report any of this?

Let’s take it one by one:

Death: Completely inconsistent or undefined from place to place and over time. In some places, such as Britain and New York, a ‘death’ for COVID 19 purposes means: person was determined to have COVID 19 at the time of death. ‘Determined’ means that the person who fills out the death certificate puts COVID 19 anywhere on it. It does not mean: the deceased tested positive. It could mean: the deceased had symptoms consistent with COVID 19, for example, a fever and a cough. Sure, that’s also consistent with the flu or a common cold, but whatever. ‘Death’ as used in the reports, at least from some of the places reporting, literally means that an asymptomatic person who tests positive and then gets run over by a lorry on his way home counts as a COVID 19 death.

That may seem far fetched, but this next example certainly isn’t: yesterday on Twitter, people were mourning the death of a man well known in certain geeky circles. His death was classified, and people were referring to it, as a COVID 19 death – that’s what the official report said.

He was 79, almost 80, and had been in a nursing home for the last few months after having suffered a massive stroke. Now, I gather few healthy people spend much time in nursing homes. Unfortunately, I have, because my father and two older sisters spent time in nursing homes prior to their deaths, and I have had a number of other occasions over the years to visit a variety of such facilities.

The majority of people in these places were put there to die. If they are very lucky, some family member will get them released into hospice care so that they don’t have to die alone in a place stinking of urine. But few are there to get better; at least, if they are there to recover, they are not generally there for long.

I’d be happy to be contradicted by medical pros or somebody with experience working is nursing homes, but here’s what I suspect: if you’re pushing 80 and have a massive stroke and don’t bounce back within 2 months, the only way you’re leaving that nursing home is feet first. Barring a miracle, of course.

No rational person would count that death as due to COVID 19. He died in the aftermath of a massive stroke. The stroke killed him. The most COVID 19 might have done was speed up his death some. But the flu or a cold would have done as much, most likely.

Now put this anecdote together with some other bits of information that have been generally available from the beginning: that people who were old, or with preexisting medical conditions, or both, were disproportionately killed by COVID 19. That COVID 19 broke (a small portion of) the Italian medical system when it ripped through nursing homes in Lombardy. That the average age of death was 81 years old.

The ability of even the most vigorous 80 year old to fight off and recover from illness is seriously impaired in almost every case. Now, start with what in almost every other case is a very minor illness – very few people who aren’t old or already sick so much as develop serious symptoms – and you’re in for a lot of deaths, provided you count every old or sick person who catches COVID 19 and dies from whatever causes as a death FROM COVID 19.

If I were building this model, as a first-pass data clean-up, I’d exclude ALL deaths of people over, say, 65 and ALL deaths of people with preexisting conditions. THEN, if I could figure out a reasonable way to do it, add back in some small fraction of those deaths on the assumption that some, at least, would have survived, say, a year and a day if they had not caught COVID 19.

That would be the professional, responsible thing to do. The number of death, after such a merely prudent clean-up, would be much smaller that currently reported. Using the raw data would be irresponsible, as it clearly misrepresents reality.

Let’s take a look at that. Back in March, when we were losing our minds:

That likely explains why although older Americans represented 31% of the cases, they accounted for 45% of hospitalizations, 53% of ICU admissions, and 80% of deaths, the CDC reported.

STAT March 19, 2020

Ninety-five percent of New York City’s almost 200 deaths from the new coronavirus had underlying health conditions, though almost half were under the age of 75, according to data published by the city’s health department on Tuesday.

Bloomberg, March 25, 2020

So, we’ve known for weeks now that only 5% of the deaths associated with COVID 19 were otherwise healthy people, and that 80% were people over 65. But rather than take prudent precautions around the sick and elderly, we shut down the economy.

If I were building this model, I’d use that 5% – that’s 1,200 deaths at the moment – as a baseline number, then add back to it some percentage – half? I’d need to do some research, but that seems generous – of the other deaths, under the assumption that those were people who, despite being abandoned to die in a nursing home, might still make it a year and a day if they hadn’t caught the virus. I’m being only slightly flippant here – to have sane numbers, you’d need some approach that filters out people who died of other causes while infected (or suspected of being infected) with COVID 19, to better reflect the real risks. If you’re dying anyway, COVID 19 isn’t really a risk, is it?

So, maybe I start with 13,200 deaths in my model. Seems high.

Next, let’s look at the Chinese. I don’t know how they define a COVID 19 death, and wouldn’t trust them to tell the truth anyway, but: if the Chinese, for their own selfish reasons, decided to count only deaths where COVID 19 seriously contributed to an untimely demise, excluding from the count people who were already seriously sick before they caught the virus, their reported numbers, which seem so low, might actually be accurate. At least, more accurate than the ridiculous numbers coming out of the West.

And – here’s the main point – if, and it’s certainly a big ‘if,’ the Chinese were in fact reporting in this manner, they would be reporting COVID 19 deaths in a way that’s much more like what a reasonable, normal person would consider a COVID 19 death.

Now consider the ‘consistent over time’ issue. New York changed to the ‘count every death where COVID 19 shows up anywhere on the death cert’ method a few days ago. They got what must have been a gratify uptick in deaths – gratifying, because why else would you do such a ridiculous thing? In this current panic, was there any reason to think deaths in New York were being underreported? Really?

Imagine if you fanned a panic and things didn’t turn out too bad, so that, come election time, your opponents can point out that your panic mongering was directly responsible for millions of lost jobs and falling incomes and destroyed businesses. Better do something about that. Today, New York ‘found’ some more deaths:

New York City today has reported 3,778 additional deaths that have occurred since March 11 and have been classified as “probable,” defined as follows: “decedent […] had no known positive laboratory test for SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19) but the death certificate lists as a cause of death “COVID-19” or an equivalent” [source]. We will add these to the New York State total as soon as it is determined whether the historical distribution can be obtained

Worldometers

Wow, nick of time. First, you change the requirement so that every death with COVID 19 anywhere on the death certificate is classified as a COVID 19 death, then you mine the old death certificates to find any where they listed COVID 19 but didn’t list it as a significant cause, so you can then throw them into the count. That this happened just as the totals for New York and the US were turning downward is one of those amazing coincidences that just keep popping up.

The US in general changed its method of counting COVID 19 deaths a week or so ago, to be more ‘generous.’ US counts are therefore inconsistent over time. Even this ignores the enormous amount of discretion local officials – doctors and coroners – have in what they put on a death certificate, especially in cases where cause of death is complicated, as it always is when preexisting conditions are involved. Even under the same rules, what counts as a COVID 19 death in Peoria may not be what counts as one in Santa Barbara, nor one on Tuesday versus one on Saturday, even in the same location. Lots of uncertainty here.

Finally, add in the political, professional, and social pressures. We’ve just burned a couple of trillion dollars in economic activity, gotten millions laid off and many millions more are seeing income reductions – you want to be the guy who calls ‘Ooopsie!’ on all this? Or do you double down? Do you want to be the one doctor who refuses to play games, or you just going to follow orders and put what they tell you to put on the death cert? New York and the recent redefinition of COVID 19 deaths shows us exactly how that’s going to work.

Similar problems exist everywhere. France, for example, had a spike in deaths when they ‘discovered’ a whole bunch of people who died in nursing homes had not been counted. France, by the way, is experiencing a ton of social unrest at the moment; Macron would like it to go away. Maybe, just maybe, he might like this whole thing to drag on a bit?

As of this moment, 125K deaths from COVID 19 have been reported worldwide. There is no reason to believe this number is remotely accurate by any reasonable definition of ‘death caused by COVID 19’ and every reason to think it wildly overstates the number of such deaths. This problem has been obvious from Day 1.

Next, we have similar issues with Cases, which I will not belabor again here. The real issues with cases is that people still insist on thinking cases = number of infected people. With rare exceptions, case counts will NOT INCLUDE asymptomatic people, for the simple reason that, so far, almost all test are of people suspected of having the virus. Somebody with no symptoms is most likely not getting tested. In the few general semi-random tests done so far, around 50% of infections are asymptomatic. Further, 96% of cases show mild symptoms. Again, many people with mild symptoms are likely not getting tested.

Again, all I’ve done here is ask the basic questions any competent model builder would ask about the data, and discovered that cases must significantly understate the number of infections in the world. Yet people who should know better keep insisting cases and people infected are the same. For example:

Worldometers

Must harp on this one more time:

Case Fatality Rate (CFR) = number of people identified as COVID 19 deaths on their death certificates / number of cases.

Fatality Rate = number of people who died from COVID 19 (however defined) / number of people infected with COVID 19.

Unless we test every human being on the planet, we will never know the true number of people infected. It was always be an educated guess. All we can reasonably know is that it must be more, and probably a lot more, than the number of cases.

Now let’s put these two things together:

Since the number of deaths has been demonstrably overstated, AND the number of people infected is demonstrably understated by the number of cases, THEN: the CFR OVERSTATES how deadly COVID 19 is. Based on my semi-educated proposed adjustments, outlined here but explained in more detail in earlier posts, I’d guess that factor is at least 4. If your CFR is 2.5%, then, the logic here shows the real fatality rate, the real risk someone who catches COVID 19 will die of it, can’t be more than 2.5/4, or 0.625% EVEN IF we make the completely insane assumption that ALL deaths WITH COVID 19 are in fact deaths FROM COVID 19. If my guesses are in the ballpark, cut those numbers in half again.

These number ignores the age/health component to risk. If you’re healthy and not old, your risk is effectively 0 – too small to mean anything in practice. Effectively, you’d be better off getting some exercise and and maybe cutting some calories than doing anything at all to avoid COVID 19. Even if you’re old, if you are otherwise healthy, your risks are tiny.

It also needs to be said that this sudden concern for the sick and elderly is ironic, by which I mean, rank hypocrisy. We routinely warehouses the sick and elderly under the care of minimum wage workers so that they are no bother to us while we wait for them to die. Again, ever been to a nursing home? For every resident who gets daily visits from loved ones, there are probably 4 who rarely, if ever, get a visitor. Ask somebody who works in one of these places. We abandon them to die, and now we’re all concerned about them dying? Give me a break. (Note: we have my 82 year old MIL living with us. She’d still be in a nursing home if we hadn’t sprung her. There are cases where this is not possible, where more care is needed than a normal family can provide. But there are plenty of cases where it would be possible, if anybody cared to do it. And nothing prevents frequent visits or at least phone calls.)

So, what would simple prudence dictate as proper actions to take in order to protect the vulnerable from COVID 19?

  • If you are sick or have been exposed to COVID 19, stay away from the sick and elderly (duh).
  • Similarly, if you are sick or elderly, you might want to consider avoiding crowds for a while. I say ‘consider’ because lack of human contact can damage people too, and loneliness is a big problem for many elderly people. If gramps want to accept the risk and go to the church potluck to be with his friends, who are we to say no?
  • Wash your hands.

I leave the proper steps to best care of hospitalized and institutionalized people to the pros. The rest of us should get back to work.

Author: Joseph Moore

Enough with the smarty-pants Dante quote. Just some opinionated blogger dude.

14 thoughts on “What “Overreaction” Means”

  1. “Every bad thing that happens is somebody’s fault” I would guess that a large part of the willingness to shut everything down is the fear of being sued over Aunt Karen’s demise. I suspect this includes places of worship as well.

  2. (I’m not clear whether my prior attempt to post this was eaten by WordPress or is just awaiting moderation, so delete if this is a duplicate. –DarwinCatholic)

    A couple of things worth noting:

    1) While I agree with you that both the question of “what is a COVID-19 death” and “what is a case” is tricky (as well as how does the latter relate to the total number of infections), I would hope that we would agree that a decent measure of “how many deaths are occurring” might be: Are we seeing more deaths than we would expect to see during this time period from normal causes?”

    There are a couple ways to get at that. One quick back of the envelope approach is to look at some of the states that are hard hit at the moment and see if the number of deaths attributed to COVID-19 is the sort that could be lost in the shuffle. The CDC has a website that allows one to download death data for the last several years, so it’s not hard to get at:

    https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html

    For instance, I see that New York State has an average of 1949 deaths per week since 2015. The min and max are 1711 and 2493. Over the last seven days, they’ve recorded 5318 deaths from COVID-19. So unless one is going to go into “jet fuel can’t melt steel beams” territory and claim that the deaths are all crisis actors, it’s pretty clear that they’re having an unusual number of deaths. Sure, we may discover in a couple weeks when CDC data is available for this week that they’re showing less deaths than we would expect from other causes, and at that point one could argue about miscounting. But when they’re recording 2x the largest number of deaths they’ve had in a week in the last five years, I think we can say that something is going on. Moreover, the week before that had 4327 COVID deaths. And the one before that was 1656. Unless they record less than 400 deaths during that seven day period from all other causes, that’ll be a stand-out week as well. Three record death weeks in a row suggests something is actually killing people in some quantity.

    And while New York is extreme, it’s not alone in having pretty clearly unusual numbers of deaths. New Jersey averages 1432 deaths a week, yet shows 1652 COVID deaths in the last seven days. Louisiana averages total deaths of 867 a week but reports 451 deaths just from COVID in the last seven days.

    Further, some studies are starting to be done looking at total deaths in other countries and seeing if they are greater than expected. The WSJ had a good article a couple weeks ago doing this kind of analysis on Italy. It showed that while the Bergamo area reported 2,060 confirmed COVID-19 deaths in March, that overall for March 2020 there were 5,400 deaths in Bergamo versus a 2015-2019 average of 996 deaths in March. That would suggest that the number of people who died because of the events (whether of the coronavirus itself or due to the medical system collapse) was actually twice the official COVID-19 number, not less.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-is-far-higher-than-reported-11585767179

    Here’s a piece applying a similar approach and similarly finding excess deaths beyond the official COVID-19 total in multiple areas:

    https://www.london.edu/news/the-true-death-toll-of-covid-19-1771

    2) While I take your point that various countries have reasons to want to justify their actions, it begins to become suspicious that so very many major countries are allegedly involved in the same plot to voluntarily tank their economies and then cover for it by exaggerating their deaths. While I overall agree on not believing China about much, they appear to have done themselves a good deal of economic damage with their own efforts to contain and eventually suppress the virus. And countries such as Sweden, which is determinedly keeping its economy open, would seem to have not motive to inflate their death counts. And yet in terms of reported COVID-19 deaths per millions in population, they’re ranking 8th in the world right now (if you exclude the places like San Marino that are too small cleanly. And it looks like their deaths will certainly be some sort of blip. I’m seeing that their average weekly total deaths in recent years has been about 1800, and over the last seven days they’ve reported 516 coronavirus deaths, which should certainly show up as a significant blip against that average. Does it really stand up to any kind of scrutiny to claim that so many countries all all conspiring to destroy their economies and then fake the deaths to justify it?

    1. Couple points: to be completely morbid here, If, as one must reasonably conclude from the available information, the general effect of COVID 19 is to kill very sick and elderly people FASTER, then what we’d need to do is check the annual or YTD totals in NY in, say, 6 months. If COVID 19 is killing people who would not have died soon anyway, we should see a big bump in the number of deaths over that timeframe, right? That a significant number of people are dying now is certainly a concern and a tragedy for the people involved, at the levels we’re seeing – maybe an extra 15,000 deaths over the last month? – is not a ‘destroy the economy’ level threat in a nation of 330M people. The long-term effects of the economic contraction stand to be a lot worse than that.

      I suspect there are two things going on politically: Yes, I think there are people in this country, France, and England who would willingly destroy the economy if they thought it might give them more political power. We live in a sick world. Then, there are others following the ‘nobody gets fired for buying IBM’ (is that reference from before your time?) model: If the US is taking steps, the politically safest thing to do is to take similar steps. If you don’t, you’re a target; if you do, you are just one of the herd.

      China is not the US: having this break out in the dead of winter in a tightly-packed industrial center among people with comparatively poor hygiene is similar in some ways, perhaps, to having a breakout in NYC or Newark, where people are also tightly packed and breath the same air in the elevators, trains, subways, and highrises,. but it is markedly different from 99% of the US and, indeed, the world. So, yes, it was worse there, and maybe the Chinese felt forced to take steps. Yet, how much of the ‘COVID 19 hurt the Chinese economy’ is the rest of the world’s reaction? As opposed to a direct result of their own suppression activities?

      Now, as I mentioned, who has the guts to take the political heat of saying: we can scale back now, sorry about getting you laid off, destroying your business, and wiping out much of your 401(k)? Again, most politicians in most Western countries are going to wait until the US eases up.

      Also, note that I’m not claiming COVID 19 is *nothing* merely that it is not nearly as bad as it is being portrayed. That we even have to do the sort of analysis you are doing to measure the effects is sign enough – the advertised pandemic was supposed to be in the ‘bring out your dead’ territory of 6-figure deaths AT A MINIMUM even with faster and more rigorous suppression than was actually put into place. The low end of the model Fauci used 3 weeks ago was 100K with ruthless suppression.

      As it is, even with NY’s and the country as a whole changing to a more ‘generous’ definition of a COVID 19 death, and NY mining old death certs to reclassify almost 4,000 deaths where no test was done and the doctors or coroner at the time didn’t list COVID 19 as a material cause of death, as COVID 19 deaths now, things would have to get worse soon if we’re to hit 75K dead – even with that ridiculously broad definition of cause of death.

      Sorry if I missed some of your points. Long comment. 😉

      1. I agree with you that if these are in fact “extra deaths” as opposed to people dying a few weeks sooner than they would have anyway, we will see this at the end of the year as overall excess mortality. I’m certainly open to bet that there will be a measurable lift in mortality in March through May which will not be made up for by strangely lower deaths from illness and old age throughout the rest of the year. I think that as of year end, we’ll see over 75,000 incremental deaths in the US during the year which seem pretty clearly attributable to COVID-19. Perhaps we can make a gentlemen’s agreement to build a spreadsheet in January, compare notes, and if it’s less than 50,000 I’ll rhetorically eat my hat. Feel free to make your own prediction and set your own rhetorical hat eating level.

        Now of course, that’s eight months from now. The difficulty for leaders at this time is they need to make decisions now, and indeed needed to make decisions weeks and months ago when the data was far less clear even than now.

        I don’t think it makes sense to argue that going into total lockdowns is a US policy which Europe is now following on a “no one gets fired for buying IBM” basis. It was, after all, China which first did lockdowns in order to control the virus. Taiwan, Hong Kong, and South Korea didn’t exactly do lockdowns, but they very aggressively did test-and-trace to identify people who had the virus or had been exposed to it, and then imposed very strict isolation on the people who had it. That was fairly effective, but it was something we didn’t try both because we didn’t have working tests in quantity at that very early stage and because we value our freedom a lot more than they do. Then Italy imposed lockdowns of varying degrees in late February. On Feb 23, Venice banned gatherings for Carnival. By March 9 public masses had been ended throughout Italy. It wasn’t until March 16 that San Francisco became the first US city to announce a lockdown which would go into effect the following day. On the same day Trump announced that the virus would be “very bad” and put forward the “15 Days to Slow the Spread” guidelines. France imposed its lockdown on March 17th, before even New York had one in the US.

        Which, of course, gets to the other problem with the argument that we’ve found COVID-19 isn’t that bad and doesn’t require all this disruption: Yes, the rate of new cases and even new deaths is slowing in the hot spots at this point. But that’s after we’ve had the US hot spot regions in lockdown for three weeks or so. Europe is seeing positive trends in Italy, Spain, and maybe France, but they’ve been locked down for 4-6 weeks. It would be pretty shocking if with everyone hunkered down we hadn’t seen the spread slow down a lot. When people move around less, they have less opportunity to give each other the virus. However, in the studies that have been done so far of how many people have had the virus in hard hit areas, few even of them seem close to herd immunity levels. So now we’re successfully holding the wolf off by the ears, but since our economy is going into freefall we know we can’t keep that up. You’ve mentioned a number of times the theory that with warmer weather, we won’t have a problem. However, that’s not necessarily clear yet. Some similar viruses slack off in warm weather and others don’t. That Louisiana is one of the growing outbreak areas isn’t super promising.

        I guess all this means nothing if one is willing to just assert that the virus has played out, isolation is having no effect on the spread, and we could go back to “normal” tomorrow and see no increase in the spread of the virus. However, I haven’t heard any rational reasons for believing that to be the case. There is a big of cowardly political leader catch-22 here in that if they bring everyone out of lockdown and infections (followed by deaths) spike, they get blamed, whereas if they take a long time on lockdown and then announce that “we crushed the curve” when people finally ease out of isolation and don’t see a second wave, they can claim “we won!”. So I’ll admit that political leaders are probably overly eager to assume the worst. But the thing is: most of what we know about the spread the virus suggests treating it pretty cautiously. Yes, it’s true we don’t have the body count of a Spanish Flu, but we’ve also managed to slow things down through drastic actions at an early stage, so we’re sitting here at a “pause” where the actual number of infections might be around 10x to 30x the number of “cases” and thus down around 2-6% of the US population. That’s good in the sense that we’ve been effective, but bad in the sense that arguably we could see 10x to 20x the hospitalizations and deaths that we’ve seen so far if we just backed off and let nature take its course. Sure, the deaths would mostly be people over 65, but it’s still got 10x the (low) death rate of the flu for people under 65, and the hospitalization and intubation rate is a lot higher than flu too.

        –DarwinCatholic

      2. Well, maybe. I’m looking at the models that were used as the basis of the lockdown, and the ‘if we do everything right, right now’
        – which didn’t happen – numbers proposed in March were 100K-240K deaths. They get those numbers by assuming a sort of blended average CFR IS the death rate – that’s wrong on several levels, as discussed. But perhaps most important: You simply can’t come up with ‘a’ CFR to apply across populations and time, let alone a true mortality rate, across cultures and climates. Chinese tenements in the dead of winter are not California in March; healthcare in Iran and even Italy is not health care in Wyoming. And so on.

        A virus *might* do a lot of things. COVID 19 seems to be closely related to 2002-2003 SARS, which had died out by the time summer rolled around. We could assume COVID 19 will be different. We could assume a lot of things. At some point – I think that point is long passed – we need to weigh the costs of the continued shutdown, and switch to a different approach: do what need to be done in the hotspots and transportation hubs, and just use basic precautions everywhere else.

        A couple contrary observations: even though Wuhan is an industrial hub to and from which thousands of people traveled during November through January, even allowing for the reflexive dishonesty of the Chinese communists, there don’t seem to be hundreds of thousands of bodies piling up in China. Assuming infection and fatality rates anything like the model, there should be – the spread would have taken place before the Chinese did anything serious. Next, look at the hotspots: Chinese tenements, Italian old folk’s homes, Mardi Gras in New Orleans (you ever been? It’s insane – sweaty drunken people packed like sardines for days on end), NYC and Newark – travel hubs w/ trains, subways and elevators in buildings where can’t even open a window. And then, the hospitals where sick people were taken.

        And – that’s about it. Last I looked, about 75% of the deaths in the US were in those 3-4 spots.

        Conversely, out here in California, where we have gigantic trade and interchange with Asia and China in particular – not so bad, less than 1,000 deaths on a 35M population. It’s also warm and sunny here, and we have nothing like the dense population centers like China and the east coast.

        So, that said: I want to take your bet, but I’m not sure how to do the math – since travel is restricted, I would expect accident fatalities to fall; all other infectious disease fatalities should fall as well. On an annual nation wide basis, net deaths therefore might be flat even if COVID 19 took out 75K. So it would take some work to make this bet fair to you.

        Even with the more ‘generous’ death classifications and the mining of death certificates where no tests were done, it still looks like a raw count of 100K deaths is not happening.

      3. This would all be a much easier sell for me if I hadn’t been told repeatedly that we had to do this because the “best case scenario” was going to be much, much worse than what we’re getting.

        But when the people who are in charge are handing down these restrictions based on scenarios that just don’t exist, you’re only going to be able to sell me on “Well, it COULD get that bad” for so long.

      4. Yeah, I figure measurement will be a little tricky, but I’m willing to go for a pretty basic approach: take the last five years or so worth of weekly total death data, average it, compare this year to it. I’m thinking that the effects of COVID-19 deaths will show up clearly. Certainly in the hardest hit states like NY, NJ, MI, and LA, but probably nationally as well. Indeed, what I’m expecting is that the “excess deaths” to date will actually be larger than the official COVID-19 counts currently are, because I think that with the ability to test having been so messed up (and our methods of ascertaining cause of death and reporting those numbers quickly to centralized data repositories) even with the new generous methods being applied we’re probably actually under counting rather than over counting coronavirus deaths. I’ll set myself a reminded to pull a bunch of data and put together an analysis post examining whether I appear to have won or lost the wager come January.

        FWIW, I do agree that the “official models” have not been very good, and I would hope that the data monkeys working on them were pretty frustrated to have one scenario taken and put out as the official minimum number of deaths. After all, back in mid March when decisions were being made about “stay at home” orders we didn’t actually have many example on which we could base our expectation for how much telling everyone to stay at home would slow the outbreak. We had the Chinese example to go by, but the type of containment they were doing was different from the types of containment we were starting to institute. And, of course, we also didn’t have very good guesses as to how many real infections were in the US and thus what the real death rate after contracting the virus was.

        I do tend to think that people were right to get fairly scared of what the result of an uncontained COVID-19 outbreak could be. The fact that its apparent fatality rate was enough lower than fearful viruses like MERS and SARS, combined with the fact that it appears to both have a contagious incubation period and asymptomatic carriers means that its possible to spread it pretty widely without the virus killing off its host population, but it does appear to both be more fatal than common viruses such as seasonal influenza and also puts a fair number of people into the hospital with serious symptoms even if it doesn’t kill them. Put all that together and having it spread as widely as the flu could be pretty bad. There were always some deeply silly numbers being tossed about by the ignorant, but I don’t think it was unrealistic to think that a totally uncontained US outbreak infecting 50-100 million people could around a million Americans while putting 4-10 million more through a pretty nasty multi-week illness.

        An outbreak like that would pretty clearly shut down the modern service economy anyway, so it doesn’t seem totally crazy to try to do a controlled shutdown and see if we could take the economic blow while avoiding the death toll. The shutdowns have slowed the virus more than the models originally predicted — which I tend to think has more to do with the models being bad at predicting how successful the shutdowns would be, not necessarily that we were wrong about how dangerous the virus is. But of course, that leaves us in a nasty situation where unless we can ramp testing capacity enough to do effective test-and-trace work and quarantine contagious people while letting everyone else get back to normal, we’ll just speed the outbreak back up as we try to release the shutdown.

        –DarwinCatholic

      5. I’ve always liked the way you think, from the examples I’ve read on your blog. I am a little surprised at your take here, since you know data and math. That said, I will take the bet. how about:

        https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate

        The UN, in line with the trend of preceding years, projected an 8.880% death rate for the US in 2020, over a population of 331,002,651. That comes out to 2,930,635 deaths. How big an increase over those numbers is significant? Your call.

        I say that not only will COVID 19 deaths not add to this total, but that, barring a sharp upturn in suicide and overdose deaths, we’ll come in under that. Why? Because workplace, leisure and travel deaths should be down more than any possible increase in deaths due to COVID 19.

        But we’re into noise territory now. Please, stick a stake in the ground: are we going to see 3,030,000 deaths? That’s adding in the 100K Fauci’s model predicted as a minimum even with more draconian restrictions than were ever done in reality. 3M even? That’s adding in the 65K or so that seems likely to be hit under the current protocols. Since 95% of those deaths are to people who are sick, old, or both, I’m thinking a total of only 3K or so additional deaths – or less than the number of people who drown each year in backyard pools, or a month’s worth of automobile accident deaths. Since we’re driving down traffic deaths for at least a few months, that should in itself offset any real gain.

        We may have a problem getting totals, in that CDC number tend to lag about 2 years.

      6. Believe it or not, I actuslly thought the U.S. was on thr right track fpr a good while – right up until the shutdown was extended an exyra month, instead of letting it go county by county as Trump seemed to want.

        Remember, as reasonable as your concerns might be, those were not the concerns people were trying to sell me to justify these reactions. How we are reacting is based off of models estimsting the dead running from the hundreds of thousands to the millions. That isn’t even close to the case.

      7. Joseph Moore,

        I too, have similarly been impressed over the years with your thinking on your blog, and I would likewise say that I’m surprised at your take here because you do have an understanding of data and it’s been my digging into the data that has be convinced that this pandemic is in fact real and that it could be a lot worse if we aren’t careful.

        I’m definitely in for the bet.

        The way I had planned on measuring it was to wait for January and then download deaths by week from the CDC Flu View website ( https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/fluview/mortality.html ) and use the total deaths column in the downloadable data set for the last five years to calculate a five year average of deaths per week from all causes at a national level and for key states. I’d then compare the total deaths per week for this year to that five year average and see how the pre period (say Oct 2019 to Feb 2020) compared to the pandemic period (Mar 2020 to … well, we’ll have to see) and then a final comparison on the post period to see if your theory that all these people would have died within the next few months anyway.

        As I said, my positive prediction is that we’ll see at least 75,000 “excess deaths” using that methodology, and if it’s less than 50,000 excess deaths I will rhetorically eat my hat and invite you to come and vaunt in the comments of my blog post about it as much as you like.

        This is the way that I’d try to measure whether some sales or marketing activity had an actual effect on revenue at work, so I feel like I’m being consistent in the type of analysis. And while the CDC does a lot of adjusting the death figure during the 5-10 weeks after data is first released, if we do the analysis next January I’m comfortable that it will be accurate enough.

        I’m not as sure about using the macro tends data just because I’m not clear when the prediction for this year will be replaced with an actual for this year. However, if we can find a good source I’m open to it though it’s a rougher measure. It looks like my prediction would be that rather than the predicted 8.88 deaths per 1000 we’ll instead see 9.107 or more.

        –DarwinCatholic

      8. Let’s do it both ways, see how it comes out. Ferguson says 1/2 to 2/3 of the COVID deaths in England are of people unlikely to have lived out the year anyway; 95% of deaths in New York are reported to be of people with one or more comorbidities; and the Italian doctors have said maybe 12% of deaths there could be primarily attributable to the virus – so, if there’s a way to count accurately, I just don’t see it.

        I do have 2 fears, which, if either pans out, will skew the data against me. Based on anecdotal stuff I’m hearing from doctors, other deaths will spike due to healthcare rationing in favor of COVID 19 and against everything else: cancer screenings, for example, are being postponed, which, given how critical early detection often is, should result in more deaths – and cancer deaths dwarf anything that COVID 19 could conceivably do, so any sort of uptick there might lose the bet. Similarly with other chronic but not critical disorders going untreated. Second, and this is both anecdotal and simply logical: people are getting stir crazy and stupid. We go walking every day, and see crazy driving, people just drag racing around our neighborhood. A kid died in a motorcycle crash just down the street – my wife saw the vehicles, although the people were thankfully already gone – said the bike had pretty much destroyed the car – that ain’t easy to do, given the mass differences. I;ve seen multiple reports on Twitter – yes, not much of a source – of there having been a sharp downturn in the usual number of trauma injuries getting treated for the first couple weeks, but now, with people both stressed out and bored out of their minds, there has been a sharp uptick.

        So, I might want an adjustment: see if accidental deaths, suicides, and chronic condition deaths are up unusually, if the gross totals come out ahead; look more specifically at the pneumonia/respiratory deaths, and see what is happening there.

        As of right now, I’m still saying overall deaths will show no increase above the projected death rates. If you want to do the whole 5-year average, I’m cool, as long as the increase in population (and, possibly, population age distribution, although I don’t think it’s material in the US over 5 years) is also taken into account.

        In the meantime, I’m throwing up yet another post attempting to explain why I grow more convinced by the day that this pandemic is wildly – and irresponsibly – overblown.

    2. I am not Joseph Moore, so take my responses for what they’re worth – nothing.

      I would say, though, that I look at this from two angles:

      1) Are as many people going to die as we were originally told?

      The answer is going to almost certainly going to be no. The models have been overshooting at basicslly every step of the way, and things were not even particularly close to spiraling out of control.

      You mention NYC. Remember how they were running out of hospital supplies? Turns out that isn’t happening.

      Remember, to reach the level adjusted for population of the nobody-remembers-it 1957 flu, we need to reach somewhere around 300+ thousand deaths, adjusted for population. We probably won’t reach 100,000, Fauci’s LOW number, if everything went completely right. So clearly we’re not reacting to reality.

      2) What is a death from corona?

      I know you and Joseph addressed this but bear with me here.

      I think you’re missing the point. This has nothing to do with a globsl conspiracy, or massive coverups, or secret world domination plans. You’d have to ask Joseph, but I won’t speculate on any of that.

      What I want to know is, what data are we plugging into these models?

      The models are what are being used to drive our behavior. Everything we do, how our countries live and die, are based on input into these models.

      But the input keeps changing! The criteria for a corona death is getting less and less strict. Forget the reasons why for a moment; maybe it is a great idea. That is absolutely what is happening though.

      Since this is the case, in theory we should be seeing sudden huge spikes in predicted deaths, right?

      Except that isn’t happening. The predictions keep getting lower and lower, despite this broadened criteria for deaths.

      What does this tell us? It tells us that not only were models using the wrong input data when corrected it still turned out they weren’t particularly close to right.

      At what point you have to ask yourself “When isn’t it DOOOOOOOOOOM anymore?”

      Because, in truth – it never was.

  3. This method of counting COVID-19 deaths is very similar to how Liberia counted Ebola deaths in the 2014-2015 West Africa outbreak: basically, anyone who died with a fever or any sort of EVD-adjacent symptom was included. Granted, their health system entirely collapsed (it was very tenuous to begin with), but we had a number of discussions with health professionals about whether we were seeing deaths FROM Ebola or deaths BECAUSE of Ebola. For the reported numbers, that was a distinction without a difference, unfortunately.

    1. That’s the logic in England: they added COVID 19 to the list of diseases that must always be noted, like Black Death and bovine spongiform encephalopathy. So they treat it like a disease where you’d need to burn bodies just to be safe. Except, unlike the other diseases on the list, COVID 19 is mostly minor and rarely fatal.

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